connecting*the*dots

13 Responses to “overdue balance?”  

1. 1 Brian O'Connell Apr 18th, 2006 at 12:15 pm

   Why is it Western standards on the one hand and global traditions on the other? I don’t know that Islam is particularly more global than the Western tradition. They’re both spread around the planet with +1 billion people subscribing.

   And in Denmark, it was your “global tradition” trying to displace the local Western standard. It might be better to ask, “Where does their impulse to force specific, Islamic traditions of unfree speech onto Western standards come from?”

   If Islam is to be practiced in the West, really, whose rules should apply? Should we void one of our most basic rights because a group of people object to it?

2. 2 Sean Coon Apr 18th, 2006 at 12:45 pm

   well, free speech is a core, foundational american concept. over the years it’s spread to nations — more importantly, people — around the world. but by any account, “free speech” is much more of a modern, actualized right in western countries than the rest of the world. that’s an important *fact* when deconstructing reactions around the world to the cartoon controversy, flushing a koran down the toilet, etc.

   as for islam being a “global tradition”… america is a judeo-christian society. our laws and our very position is based on such teachings (whether we like it or not). sure, there are muslims in the US (~7M) and other western nations (~85M), but that is less than 10% of the global muslim population.

   so when i speak of global traditions, i speak of traditions that are not based primarily in judeo-christian beliefs or western traditions. call it eastern, middle-eastern, etc. if it serves your needs.

   in this information age, it’s irresponsible to think that a localized event (in denmark) won’t become a global conversation and/or reaction. your twisting of my question to fit *your* perspective of islam being the tinder and spark of the situation speaks volumes to the perspective i’m trying to comprehend.

   we should *understand* global currents and take responsibility for our actions. period. forcing the issue of change will never bring about the desired results.

3. 3 Dan Saffer Apr 18th, 2006 at 10:15 pm

   Not all “global traditions” are good ones. Don’t fall into the pluralism trap of all traditions or cultures being equal and worthy of respect. They aren’t. Free speech is better than not. Women having rights is better than not. Being free to worship your religion without being executed for it is better than not. Not being stoned to death because you are gay or commit adultery is better than otherwise.

   I also wouldn’t claim that free speech is a particularly American institution, although it is certainly revered (or given lip service) in the US.

4. 4 Sean Coon Apr 18th, 2006 at 11:41 pm

   i never said all “global traditions” are good ones; i just said that we in the west seem to think that our right to free speech trumps all.

   the polar opposites you’re describing apply to what part of this conversation?

5. 5 Brian O'Connell Apr 19th, 2006 at 6:56 am

   “Global” makes a poor synonym for “non-Western” because it implies a universality that might not be there, but which might be convenient to imply. When a Danish event becomes global, you want us to think that “global traditions”, by which you mean non-Western traditions, should apply. It would sound much siller to say that Eastern traditions should apply in Denmark, wouldn’t it?

   It was Danish Islamic clerics who circulated the cartoons in the Islamic world, not the internet. But anyway, by your logic, because information is freer now than it was, the rules of the least permissive culture should hold global sway.

   And another thing. :)

   I notice you’ve got a “Free Hao Wu” pic on this site. Why do you want to force Western standards of freedom, justice, and human rights on as fine a global tradition as Chinese culture? Remember, forcing the issue of change will never bring about the desired results. Better to understand global currents and take responsibiltiy for our actions.

6. 6 Sean Coon Apr 19th, 2006 at 6:11 pm

   assuming this is your daily line of logic… i’m speechless.

7. 7 darkmoon Apr 19th, 2006 at 10:34 pm

   Uhh. What does freeing Hao Wu have anything to do with Chinese culture? I agree, Americans stick their heads where they don’t belong many a time. Right time and place for everything, and some just are not cut out for say…. “democracy” (or what we propose as democracy).

   Free speech is a good thing. But what Sean is saying (from what I can understand) is that Americans like to ride in like a cowboy and parade around like their way is the way of the world. Not so. If we parade in, then we’ll get thrown out just like Christian missionaries did so many centuries ago in China. The only reason there is even the Christian faith in China? One single missionary took it upon himself to learn Mandarin, and tie Christianity to Confucianism. The Emperor allowed him to stay because of it.

   We as Americans (on a whole) don’t respect others in their cultures. But freeing Hao Wu and culture has no relevance.

8. 8 darkmoon Apr 19th, 2006 at 10:36 pm

   Hrm. maybe I got that backwards on who said what. Whatever.

9. 9 Sean Coon Apr 19th, 2006 at 10:42 pm

   no, darkmoon, you’re pretty much spot on. i just don’t get why we feel like we need to been equal opportunity offenders — as if stirring up more controversy does anything positive.

   if you look at the comments on jeff’s thread, you’ll find them leaning in the direction of “networks are about making money, not about giving a shit” or “comedy central mocks the other religions, why not islam?”

   to me, that’s a pathetic perspective and a bullshit excuse to knowingly upset 1.2 billion people.

   the vibe of the conversation is as if we’d be teaching the fanatics / terrorists a lesson of modernism by pumping out more dipictions of their prophet through our vehicle of free speech. what isn’t being discussed is that the average muslim (god fearing, tax paying, family person) believes in the same tenant, just not as vociferously where they don’t respond with violence. so what ends up happening is we target our “free speech” at a fractional subset of a huge population, and do more harm than good.

10. 10 darkmoon Apr 20th, 2006 at 8:33 am

    That’s why the reasons behind this war against “terrorism” is idiotic. Locally, I can tell you that there are some bloggers that use the phrase “all terrorists are Islamic”. I pointed this out lately to one of the bloggers, and got my head chewed off that the IRA is fighting for a revolution, and are not terrorists. LOL. It’s just like in the latest Bond flick (have to say it sucked), this guy says: One man’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter.”

    If you parade in saying you’re the best, into people that are looking for something else, that’s one thing. You parade in and try to change people without them asing, that’s another.

    NPR had a great story on Christianity in Iraq a bit ago. The Christians are say that they’re now persecuted because they’re linked to Americans while before, it was a small following, but they were left alone. The fruits of our labor. With all action, comes consequence. What upsets me is that from living in a cross-culture where it has often clashed, I have found a way to exist. But the reason why the rest of the world currently really hates Americans? Because they pull that cowboy attitude. My parents get satellite feeds of Taiwan and Chinese news. Regardless of what politicians say, the attitudes are very anti-American because of current foreign policies and the whole cowboy attitude of this administration.

    Oh well.

    Which leads into something else entirely, but wish we could have chatted longer last night. Politics is always a fun contraversial discussion topic.

11. 11 Sean Coon Apr 20th, 2006 at 8:40 am

    fun and frustrating. next time…

12. 12 Brian O'Connell Apr 20th, 2006 at 8:08 pm

    You are both confusing “Americans riding in” to non-Western areas to proclaim that Western standards should hold, with Americans (and Danes) practicing free speech in their own countries.

13. 13 Sean Coon Apr 20th, 2006 at 8:25 pm

    when you *knowingly* fan fires from across the globe, you *are* chickenhawkishly trying to provoke a reaction under the guise of positive change. comparing that with trying to free a political prisoner is a dishonest line of conversation.

    we moved on…