connecting*the*dots

11 Responses to “FooCamp… And?”  

1. 1 Tara 'Miss Rogue' Hunt Aug 27th, 2006 at 3:17 am

   A coupla things…

   #1. FOOcamp rocks…and in a bit of a different way than BarCamp.

   Think about it like a dinner party. You could either invite a select group of people who you think would create amazing charged conversation or you could post it on upcoming and see what happens.

   Both would be uber cool. In fact, I would do both and see what the results are. ‘Cause I’m at FOO and it’s different than BarCamp. Better in some ways, worse in others.

   #2. BarCamp, although it has been classified as an anti-FOO by some, is not.

   In fact, BarCamp is paying homage to FOO…saying, “Damn, that’s an awesome idea, can we steal that?” BarCamp open-sourced a pretty cool idea and it has become an international phenomenon.

   I don’t like the other responses to FOO (the anti-FOOs). I think they are negative and unfair. Tim has created something pretty amazing here and, personally, I wouldn’t want that negative energy in this space…which is totally positive.

   I wish that Chris was here, though. :( He has to hold up BarCampEarth…I understand.

2. 2 Sean Coon Aug 27th, 2006 at 3:43 am

   linking to you is like calling your cell, tara! ;-)

   yeah, your description pretty much fits my mental model of the foo experience. dave must be mad at tim on a personal level, because from the outside looking in, it looks nothing like a bad thing for the industry or the people involved.

   sustainability is important to the industry — all industries — but foo ain’t tied to the roots of capitalism’s short-sighted nature as far as i can tell.

3. 3 Chris Messina Aug 27th, 2006 at 4:24 am

   Hey man, obviously I agree with Tara — both FOO and Bar can coexist in the same universe — and in fact need each other to define the other (to some extent). I think that FOO’s a great idea and I’m proud of Tara for being invited — I’m also proud that a number of original BarCampers are enjoying their first FOO weekend as well — testament to both models.

   You’d also be wise to know that Yahoo’s Hack Day is no longer employees only and is actually going open.

   Oh, and lastly, since Dave hasn’t shown up at BarCamp yet, he apparently only cares about being on the inside of the “inside crowd”, in which case he’s even more disengenious than the people he’s attacking on his blog.

4. 4 Dave Winer Aug 27th, 2006 at 9:50 am

   My issue was largely with David Weinberger. He’s a smart guy and he knows there’s a problem, and edges right up to it, but doesn’t say the obvious thing.

   In any case, I objected a couple of years ago when they had discussions about open standards at a Foo Camp, coming out of the meeting with the proclamation that they had reinvented something near to my heart. I want to make sure we don’t have to deal with that again.

   You know, I might be mollified if there was a clear statement of purpose about the event, and part of that statement said that you are not to say it’s an open event. A social gathering, okay, but trying to set standards? Well, not if Tim gets the say-so on who gets to be tehre.

   And by the way I really believe what I said, and it’s not simply a matter of “Dave is mad at Tim.” It’s true I do get angry with the guy, but it’s a rational emotion, when he so often puts people on stage who trash me personally, or claim credit for my work, and I never get a chance to speak at these events, or participate.

   When you make it personal that puts exactly the kind of chill that Tim seems to want on it. He’s always used that BS in discourse, and it’s not fair, don’t you do it too Sean. Be better than that. That’s a very Soviet approach. They used to send dissidents to the insane asylum because you must be insane if you don’t like the Soviet Union. ;-)

   And maybe defining in-ness shouldn’t be left to someone who is as vindictive and fear-driven as Tim is. Read the Om Malik post again, esp the bit about social behavior. Is that a leader or a school marm?

   Of course Tim is going to be Tim. But we need leadership, not fear. I’m really more irritated by the people who accept the invitation on his terms. I have said it before, I would never go to an event that was so exclusive. I might enjoy the ego-stroke, but it would bother me that my friends and colleagues couldn’t participate (and it would never work, I would say what I think, without regard for anyone’s thin skin).

5. 5 Sean Coon Aug 27th, 2006 at 12:42 pm

   well, different personalities handle things differently. david just might not get tweaked in the exact same ways that you do.

   when you say, “And maybe defining in-ness shouldn’t be left to someone who is as vindictive and fear-driven as Tim is.” i honestly don’t understand what you mean. are you referring to his invite list? if so, aren’t you giving him more influence by simply uttering something to that effect?

   i guess i need to have my feet in your shoes, dave, to truly understand the beef you have with the whole weekend, invite approach, setting standards, etc. because with all the bullshit happening in the world, this ain’t an issue on my radar.

   again, that’s coming from where i sit, in the woods of NC, nowhere near the valley and the swill of industry one-ups. i also don’t know o’reilly beyond his name adorning a few books i own, and i’ve not contributed something as revolutionary as rss to the world, with no strings attached.

   there’s no way i could view this from the same lens as you.

   an anecdote… when i left the closed world of ameritrade last year — where the philosophical rub between myself and all of management was beyond reproach to say the least — for a few days, i wondered aloud why others didn’t pick up the good fight.

   others benefited greatly from the change i evangelized and forged in that organization and domain over the course of a few short years, but it felt like no one was willing to step up and continue to challenge the status quo decision-making process of big business, especially when avoiding the cost of innovation and the needs of customers.

   looking back on it, shit, i can’t blame them. if people want to stay employed, people do what they must.

   i don’t know how that aside squares within this foo rub, but i do know that we all view the world, issues, etc. with varying degrees of perspective and importance. maybe david just likes to camp with smart people and can leave it at that.

6. 6 Dave Winer Aug 27th, 2006 at 3:21 pm

   Ironically you’re making a bigger deal of it on your blog than I am on mine. Enjoy the woods of Cackalacka.

7. 7 Sean Coon Aug 27th, 2006 at 3:23 pm

   this is the first time i’ve ever mentioned foo here, but that’s neither here nor there… thanks, i shall ;-)

8. 8 Dave Winer Aug 27th, 2006 at 3:25 pm

   Chris, what is *that* all about!

   I went to BarCamp last year, and I went to one in Seattle (made a special trip just for the camp). This weekend I happen to be shipping software, and you’re reading WHAT into that??

   I’ve put on four BloggerCons, all of which were open to all comers and free of charge.

   Please get off my case, all right, and tell Tara to do the same. I don’t have any grudge with you, so please let’s keep everything nice and not personal, okay??

9. 9 Sean Coon Aug 27th, 2006 at 11:15 pm

   eh hem, i get to finally bust out some southern…. this is between y’all.

10. 10 Chris Messina Aug 27th, 2006 at 11:44 pm

    Heh. I have no interest in starting a feud, but my point is this: FOO is an event of its own kind; it’s like being invited to someone’s birthday — sometimes there’s room for you, sometimes there’s not. No biggie.

    I can’t speak to standards being written or rewritten at FOO — as far as I’m concerned, XHTML is a perfectly good format for syndication, so I don’t know what’s gone on there in the past.

    I wasn’t aware that you were launching software this weekend, but given that you were, I can’t see why you’d be upset about FOO — you wouldn’t have been able to go anyway. And, in any case, invite or no, BarCampStanford was available *this* weekend as an alternative if you were available. We had a great time and got a lot done — I’m jus’ sayin’.

    And I appreciate that you went last year to BarCamp; as far as I recall, there’s not been a BarCamp in Seattle, though there was a derivative event, and it’s good to hear that you made it. There was also a Bloggercon put on this year during BarCampSanFrancisco, even after the BarCamp had been announced… so I’ve never figured out why there were two open events that week… but as far as I’m concerned, there’s enough room for all of our events to keep on bein’ open, as that’s the best we can do to set the model for ourselves. Frankly, it’s a losing battle to worrying about changing anyone else.

1. 1 The yin-yang of FOO and Bar at FactoryCity Pingback on Aug 28th, 2006 at 4:57 pm